Naomi Shihab Nye: That’s wonderful. It’s crazy. Yeah. And to now hear you talk about your grandson offering these amazing lines, it’s just wild! Franny Choi: And so I think that there’s like, for me, it’s just like a constant back and forth between those things. “It’s been such a great life decision for me. Thank you for saying that. I mean, I just read that poem this morning. Naomi Shihab Nye: Franny, I think you’re so wise to say that, because like, I wondered if when they read the poem “Separation Wall,” I wondered if the judges were thinking about how much fighting against our wall. If I don’t like where I’m standing in this story, where might it be a better place to look at this story from? Naomi Shihab Nye: Yeah, I love that question. And then he said, “Candles?” I thought that was incredible. As art history began to become an academic subject in the 19th century, ekphrasis as formal analysis of objects was regarded as a vital component of the subject, and by no means all examples lack attractiveness as literature. As bedness after bedness shares the ideal form and template of all creation of beds, and each bedness is associated with another ad infinitum, it is called an "infinite regress of forms". Franny Choi: I was like, wow, Naomi, like you—I don’t, is it? Franny Choi: Naomi, will you do with the honor of closing us out with one last poem? but if you question them, they maintain a most majestic silence. Nicola Bell is the business editor for The Weekly Times. Franny Choi: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this writing about the separation of the Koreas, and the kind of like intensity of that, of the border between North and South Korea. How can you treat anyone that way? I have written about it all my writing days, especially since I was in college, I guess. I taught a creative writing seminar at Williams in the spring, and it was like a very stressful and weird thing to really suddenly switch to remote learning. So do you, Naomi, do you want to say the best of things or the worst of things? Franny Choi: Well, also, you know, as we move into the end of the year, what about outside of VS? Danez Smith: No, Castaway is the most recent. And just the little things that he says all the time. (LAUGHS). 1) Christian fascism is stronger than ever, a much bigger factor now than in the Bush years. The inadequacy of most medieval accounts of art is mentioned above; they generally lack any specific details other than cost and the owner or donor, and hyperbolic but wholly vague praise. Danez Smith: Hi, Franny. You know, I grew up in Ferguson, Missouri. Danez Smith: Two. I know these digital semesters have been rough for those of us who didn’t necessarily plan or opt for that type of education. I think that ninth grade Frances would be like, so relieved, actually, to know that like, we had been able to make something out of over-sharing, you know? Romance. Herman Melville's Moby Dick, or The Whale features an intense use of ekphrasis as a stylistic manifesto of the book in which it appears. [15], The cloak and its depicted events lend more to the story than a simple description; in true ekphrasis fashion it not only compares Jason to future heroes such as Achilles and Odysseus, but also provides a type of foreshadowing. The fullest example of ekphrasis in antiquity can be found in Philostratus of Lemnos' Eikones which describes 64 pictures in a Neapolitan villa. Brodsky was born into a Russian Jewish family in Leningrad.He was a descendant of a prominent and ancient rabbinic family, Schorr (Shor). That was kind of fun to do. You know, people make all kinds of comments about resistances to poetry, like, “But look at the world! So we’re so excited to get to share this interview with Naomi Shihab Nye. Prelude to Foundation. Symphony in White, No. They’re not even kids, they’re full grown adults, but they’re my kids. And Grace used to say that she looked at politics as simply the way human beings treat one another. For this reason--that my memory failed me--the argument flagged for want of material. And so, you know, I’m not talking to strangers, not reading random things all around the city, you know, like I’m so used to traveling, too, and that I think, there’s so much language and talking in that. So I don’t know, just like, being able to, like, look at them, you know, even sometimes from like a six foot distance, a lot this year. And so, that has been moving to me and also the love our beautiful, wonderful four-year-old grandson is feeling toward being with the Earth, being with dirt. Franny Choi: Totally. You know, not that I’m against mystery or the unknown. It’s so, it’s so good in the air. Dante Gabriel Rossetti's "double-works" exemplify the use of the genre by an artist mutually to enhance his visual and literary art. Is there an age or a time or a happening that you see language sort of starting to die in kids? Your thoughts start flowing a different way. Why is a red, lowering sky in the morning a sign of rain, and a brilliant red sky at night, of fair weather? Danez Smith: Naomi fucking Shihab Nye, y’all. Hosted by poets Danez Smith and Franny Choi, produced by Daniel Kisslinger, and presented by the Poetry Foundation and Postloudness. (LAUGHING) I’m just in—im just in—in kindness mode. Look at all our problems, and how can we possibly give ourselves that little luxury of basking in a poem?” And my instinct would be, well, that’s that’s why you need it, because you’re overwhelmed with all this other stuff. You’re right. So thank you to everybody. Isaac Asimov. Well, he was a question asker. I liked listening, that’s how it felt to listen to you and Cam. Jason, by donning the cloak, can be seen as a figure who would rather resort to coercion, making him a parallel to Odysseus, who uses schemes and lies to complete his voyage back to Ithaca. I mean, they were as magical as Connor is. Danez Smith: But also, you know, if it’s not your first time here, thank y’all for coming through the season. And anyone who tells you, it isn’t—Mike Pompeo, I’m talking to you. Okay, ninth grade, fresh into poetry, still is excited to get a journal for Christmas Danez—. Yeah, it’s a huge deal! Let’s go. And that peacefulness of sitting by the water just, it’s so wonderful. You know, you get in these habits of, people will ask you to read certain things or you feel certain poems are befrienders, that people respond to them easily. Yet, I’m old. He started it as a radio journalist, as a young man in Jerusalem, and then became a newspaper journalist. Naomi Shihab Nye: Right. And inviting me. Oh, wow. Naomi Shihab Nye: Take it away. Danez Smith: Naomi—or Miss Naomi, I should say—. When I hear about forgotten people, I think, I knew the man down the alley by the market. “Transfer that exhaustion into our energy and hope for our people.” Yeah. That there is a use in, I guess, our exhaustion. I’ve been like yeah, really grateful to my family, to the women in my family. Danez Smith: So now we’ve come to our oldest and most storied game on this show, This versus That. You know, “How come I didn’t have any Arab-American friends as a child? We don’t like it. It’s a door now. Naomi Shihab Nye: I would love to. And so, I’ve been very like appreciative that there are so many, so, so, so many folks doing what they do best, which is their poems. So you figure out what your hope improvement activities are. You know, we’ve been talking about paying attention, and we’ve been talking about your father. It was like a double act of humanity, that you listened to the poem back then and then found me in this other period of life to say something about it. It was disturbing to the immigrants of the neighborhood, like my dad and the Italians on one side and the French Canadians on the other. Franny Choi: There was a big question earlier this year about whether we would continue being able to make this show for various reasons, actually not having to do with Covid, but more having to do with uprisings for racial justice happening all over the country. That interview, like, so many brilliant folks blessed us both on the page and on the mic this year. Yeah, that’s the magic part of it. Naomi Shihab Nye: So I was aware of that. He was also concerned in journalism with what was left out of the story. Bridging English. Yeah. And you know, I feel duty bound to remain hopeful for them. And, you know, since I was more interested in poetry from a very young age, I just liked the kind of language of poetry and the fact that you didn’t have to stick to the who, what, when, where, why, you know, the questions of journalism. Uhm… some kind man I don’t know wrote me an email this morning, someone in my city who said that he’s remembering a poem I read at the library like five or 10 years ago that was about a conversation I had with a postal worker at the post office. Naomi Shihab Nye: Ooo, anything by W.S. So that’s what moves me. And some of the ways that poets, us included, were trying to hold the Poetry Foundation accountable, all of which is to say, we are at least going to be here for another season in 2021. Take care of yourselves. So that’s one of my secret—. [clarification needed] The paintings of Edward Hopper have inspired many ekphrastic poems, including a prize-winning volume in French by Claude Esteban (Soleil dans une pièce vide, Sun in an Empty Room, 1991),[9] a collection in Catalan by Ernest Farrés (Edward Hopper, 2006, English translation 2010 by Lawrence Venuti), an English collection by James Hoggard Triangles of Light: The Edward Hopper Poems (Wings Press, 2009), and a collection by various poets (The Poetry of Solitude: A Tribute to Edward Hopper, 1995, editor Gail Levin), together with numerous individual poems; see more at Edward Hopper § Influence. Oh my god. Because I’ll say, you know what? What’s like, one particularly cute moment that you are holding onto as you move towards the end of 2020? How can you treat a grandma that way? (LAUGHS) Two, it’s a little nasty, and I also like that. Danez Smith: I don’t know, I’m really, you know, kind of humbled after all the nice things she said, and after all the nice things she like, is. So it’s so weird just to be like—so thank you for saying those nice things about us and to be able to sit at your Zoom feet for the last little bit has been—. That may be the reason for our love of song-it has wings and lifts us; with proper songs, it is a nourishing spiritual exercise." And so, I think that’s been a kind of refreshment, is like, finding the sort of poetry in the language that I don’t normally think about it as, right. Danez Smith: Three—(LAUGHS). Franny Choi: We also want to thank our producer, Daniel Kisslinger. Naomi Shihab Nye: But I think that’s what—I don’t know, I think it’s what our job is as poets, to try to keep finding a way to engage with them in our poems, whether the political poems or the walking down the street, easy poems. You know, it’s 3:00PM, the sun is setting, I’m getting nostalgic. Franny Choi: You know what else I loved was listening to the conversation that you had with Michael Lee. And like, what a better last episode of the season. And so, I feel like young people are at the center of both of these collections. When Phaeton gazes upon the temple of the sun, he sees the following carvings:[24], The rationale behind using examples of ekphrasis to teach literature is that once the connection between a poem and a painting are recognized for example, the student's emotional and intellectual engagement with the literary text is extended to new dimensions. But, you know, in those cases, my memory might be jarred. Later in the novel, another character, Hippolite, describes the painting at much length depicting the image of Christ as one of brutal realism that lacks any beauty or sense of the divine. Naomi Shihab Nye: I guess we’re forever in a process of figuring that out. [21] This scene is almost identical to Thetis, the mother of Achilles, asking Hephaestus to create her son new weapons and armor for the battle of Troy. You know, even on a personal note, like in a year where it’s been very hard to write, it’s been very good to read, still. I’m curious what both of you have done for your refreshment. The suite is based on real pictures, although as the exhibition was dispersed, most are now unidentified. (LAUGHS) And it’s nice to have at least these small moments of beauty in a year that’s also brought us so much loneliness and pain and turbulence. RO.” “Run-on, run-on, run-on.” Yeah. A third bedness, too, may share the ideal form. And how when I start feeling really exhausted on the news channel of my brain and I need to give more time to the awareness poem part … you know, I think it doesn’t take as much effort to regenerate our aware spirit in the poem part as some people think it does. So there could be even yet another generation in there somewhere. 1, Volume No. Just he said, “I just really want to tell you, I’ve thought about that poem all these years.” That was so touching to me. It’s like such an incredible honor and gift. It’s a good, solid, sound jabber—. Naomi Shihab Nye: Of course, as we know from time and our own experiences, that kind of magical metaphor in many people’s lives is a short-lived, magical period. Nevertheless, people who want power for themselves keep trying to manipulate the territory. Yeah, where do you think that dies for a lot of us? And he just had that spirit all his life. Naomi Shihab Nye: Well, thank you for your comments. And he was constantly trying to work with that and write stories that would bring both peoples in as deserving of respect, humanity, dignity. Danez Smith: Yeah. The shield of Achilles is described by Homer in a famous example of ekphrastic poetry, used to depict events that have occurred in the past and events that will occur in the future. The kid is like, “Why are you late?”. On both sides of the coin, students and teachers. And they kindly invited me to do it and,” yeah, I’m lucky that I get to be in the kid venue more, thanks to that worthy position. The Name Originally the name Anglo-Saxon denotes two of the three Germanic tribes,--Jutes, Angles, and Saxons,--who in the middle of the fifth century left their homes on the shores of the North Sea and the Baltic to conquer and colonize distant Britain. (LAUGHS), Danez Smith: Yeah, it is really cool. And you just you cultivate that feeling of awareness. Danez Smith: Do you maybe have any idea of what might be that link between the persona and the political for you? I’m sorry. Someone I’ve known a long time sent me a poem by a poet I’ve loved for maybe 30 years. We should always be on the lookout for something interesting and to learn more about everything. I think, you know, we can think of poems by other people. I think, I mean, it feels to me like a motive or an education for those of us who do write political work, right. So like, work in translation or work of a different era. Om en ekfras för den digitala tidsålder, Ekfrase. And that’s one thing I think attracted my father and mother here. Shout-out to my students. ... Wider than the Sky. It’s the most insatiable bush. Make sure you follow us on social media @Vsthepodcast. Ekphrasis is described in Aphthonius' Progymnasmata, his textbook of style, and later classical literary and rhetorical textbooks, and with other classical literary techniques was keenly revived in the Renaissance. Naomi Shihab Nye: I’m the one with two stars. In the evening it indicates a clearing away when the temperature is falling, and hence shows a determination to dryness. Make sure you take a social media break if you fucking need to. Naomi Shihab Nye: More than a long time. And he refused to be cast as an enemy of Jewish people. Naomi Shihab Nye: I mean, that’s something I’ve always dealt with, like just the compulsion of every day. Uhm…frankincense, maybe. If my mother heard someone on television misusing grammar, she would somehow track down the address of that program and write them a letter and demand that they work on their grammar skills. Both works of art can be interpreted as having much importance in the overall meaning of the play as protagonist Ellida Wangel both yearns for her lost youth spent on an island out at sea and is later in the play visited by a lover she thought dead. So we’re going to give you two concepts, things, places, you know, nouns, and you tell us who would win in a round of fisticuffs. And I wondered, with the political nature of your work, right, does the call towards like the politics of your work and the call to be welcoming, are those two things ever in contention? The book is wonderful and made me think really deeply about how our use of any technology shapes us (how we think, what we think, etc) and how … I’m very moved by being with the Earth. My parents were grammar hounds. Naomi Shihab Nye: You know, this is such an exhausting situation in Israel, Palestine. I feel insulted on behalf of generations such as Janna’s, the young—Janna. We are so excited for y’all and us—shit, too, we were geeks—to spend this last episode of the season with literal legend Naomi Shihab Nye. George Yule And so I was always being moved by their lines, their poems, their images. And you used the word “transfer.” I did write a book called Transfer for my father after he died, which is also, I would say, my other most political book, in some way. Franny Choi: (LAUGHS) I think that that fight might have been a little bit rigged. You have so much stuff, too. Naomi Shihab Nye: Danez, I love that you said “doors and windows,” because to me doors and windows are welcoming. And we don’t make these monolithic like, against you, against us attitudes. Franny Choi: Wow, you have—you have written so many books. That’s a very important point. How in United States newspapers, Israel was often presented as the good guys and Palestinians or Arabs were presented as bad people. It’s never felt hopeless. Too much, saying, “Oh, I don’t have time for that.” And nobody can get away with that with me anymore in a poetry session. In 2020, she received the Ivan Sandrof Award for Lifetime Achievement from the National Book Critics Circle. You know, I often don’t dive into my own older books unless someone brings something up. That’s so cool that you think so! I’m breaking up some beds. So you get in the habit of reading those. He likes digging more than I do. I mean, we’re talking about over like 30 books— do you often find yourself diving into that archive and just seeing like, what did I do? I’m going with the kid. (eds.). Forward the Foundation. Naomi Shihab Nye: And this is the fist fight, This vs. That. This is because ekphrasis typically contains an element of competition with the art it describes, aiming to demonstrate the superior ability of words to "paint a picture". That is really a fact that I’m proud of, that this particular book would win both the Texas awards. The only objective of the game is to try to answer quickly. Franny Choi: (LAUGHING) When did that one come out? I still have beautiful lettuce billowing that I like to go out and pick and water and tend. But always, sort of there’s something, I think what you’re saying, even in the patience to sit with a poem, there is, I think, a spirit of hope or of light that we have to maintain. You know, trying to imagine more what it was like for my father all those years being homesick for a world that you never get to live in in the same way again. So, like, they’re kind of thinking about like, “Oh, I don’t know if I should do it this way, I don’t know if I want to do this thing that feels more stylistic or cool or inventive to myself.” Or I don’t know if I want to, like, do what you’re saying, which is like, sort of be understood maybe in a way that doesn’t allow you to reach the most athletic version of the thought, or something like that maybe. I don’t believe in protein.”. It was just like one of the books that, for me, was a standout collection of what I read this year. And herbs and some tomatoes I hope will still have a chance to ripen. It’s a place that should be looked at in a different way. Fuji, by Hokusai" uses an ekphrastic frame, descriptions of Hokusai's famous series of woodcuts, as a structural device for his story. The literary text takes on new meaning and there is more to respond to because another art form is being evaluated. And so, we would kind of go on these, little like, poetry rushes asking folks about their work. Well, lucky recipients. And he leaned down to it and said, “Hello, little buddy, how did you get here?”. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state as we may hope, than the Caucasian and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.” ― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man Yeah. Are you going to get a tattoo? Franny Choi: It was really cool. Franny Choi: Hmm. Naomi Shihab Nye: “Where have you been? It’s only gotten worse. Artists began to use their own literary and artistic genre of art to work and reflect on another art to illuminate what the eye might not see in the original, to elevate it and possibly even surpass it. Franny Choi: It’s an honor just to be reading. Can you close your eyes and give yourself a little silence before you read it and give yourself some silence after you read it? Danez Smith: Yeah, so that’s one of my secret wants is to do like a cross the country train trip. She has more than 10 years' experience as an agribusiness and agriculture journalist and has worked at The Weekly Times since 2012. Naomi Shihab Nye is one of the first poets that I ever taught, and she has just been a beacon for me and for so many people. I mean, you work with so many young people, too. I mean, I’m just so amazed that we have been able to keep making this show from the comfort of our homes. And so, sometimes people would sort of single him out. That you could imagine what that person was thinking. Since the types of objects described in classical ekphrases often lack survivors to modern times, art historians have often been tempted to use descriptions in literature as sources for the appearance of actual Greek or Roman art, an approach full of risk. And that used to fascinate me, like, he would put a newspaper on my breakfast place at the table and say, “There are three grammatical errors on this page. Naomi Shihab Nye: Famous place now. Naomi Shihab Nye: Because adults, we’re too distracted, we let all this stuff in, we’re overwhelmed with knickknacks in the brain. But for now, just know that there’s more VS in your future. And then maybe be like found again by the third book. You know you can go trim a vine and feel better. So when you read about exile or containment from someone who really grappled with that as a central theme of so much of his work, he has felt very close during all this time. 162–163. He commences with the original form of a bed, one of a variety of ways a bed may have been constructed by a craftsman and compares that form with an ideal form of a bed, of a perfect archetype or image in the form of which beds ought to be made, in short, the epitome of bedness. "You know, Phaedrus, that is the strange thing about writing, It is a sort of language legacy. Danez Smith: what your son said, you know? That’s part of our job. Isaac Asimov. Naomi Shihab Nye: We keep stirring up that compost of metaphor, inside possibility, inside words, inside our heads, our dreams. So, in this exhaustion of mind, years after my father has died, I kept watching this, this girl, Janna, who to me, represents the idealism of youth, the new hope of the next generation. Naomi Shihab Nye: So that’s moving me. At the end of this decade, known as 2020. It just got in shelves. So I’m wondering, what is that word “political” for poetry mean for you? they go on telling you just the same thing forever".[4]. And right now he’s at a peak moment of saying incredible things. Danez Smith: I’m going to thank the poets, just as a big group. You know? He would have questions instantly for any person that he had just met. I feel like reading some different things. You know? Naomi Shihab Nye: “RO. Or how do they feed one another? It also contains multiple images of battles and occurrences of manslaughter. Naomi Shihab Nye: Four books in three years. Why does a distant light, in the night, seem like a star! And so I have been thinking, like, let me actually take my time as I type this paragraph text to a friend and think about what I can do in here, and like, how I can like, you know, be particular for them, and particular for us. (LAUGHS). Franny Choi: Yeah, they’re all cool, too. It’s like an insult to our state. 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Your political game and story Painter of his soul so as to have portrait... How I pronounce it, Yeah, it ’ s great her claim to the conversation that think... That deep attention that—is it Farrokhzad been on a train for like, my opportunity to get it off this! Through the city of Troy his youth will soon fade debauched life, the Palestinian... You were mentioning, just as a young child that we should be! A walk and feel better could be even yet another generation in there somewhere took definition as province! English isn ’ t eat meat, but I ’ m getting sappy a...